Posts by Sea Breeze

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Thankfully, we have the writings of two of the Apostle John's disciples, Ignatius and Polycarp - both congregation leaders who refer to this verse in their writings.

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117)

"I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which you have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour. Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by THE BLOOD OF GOD, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you."

Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155)

"Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through THE BLOOD OF GOD you completed perfectly the task so natural to you."

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

The phrase, "thus saith the Lord" appears over 400 times in the Old Testament. It does not appear in the NT even once.

But in the NT Jesus said, "I say unto you" 135 times. Just let that sink in a moment.
Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the apostle John, refers to "the blood of God"
"I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which you have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour. Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by THE BLOOD OF GOD, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you."
The Christian God bleeds plain and simple.

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Sea Breeze

Approximately 2/3 of all non-Catholic Christians believe in a literal paradise earth.... they just don't call it that. They call it the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Amillennialists deny a literal millennial reign:

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Ortodox
Roman Catholic Church
Lutheran
Reformed
Anglican
Methodist

Episcopalian

Augustine started amillennialism in the late 300's. That view today, is generally a carry-over from roots in the Roman Catholic church.

The majority of everyone else believes in a literal thousand-year reign, as did the early church leaders.

The first premillennialists [belief in a literal millennial reign] were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth."

(1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth."

(2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist.

(3) The Epistle of Barnabas (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state.

(4) Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

(5) Justin Martyr considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place."

I had a kind lady explain this to me one day in field service. I stopped going in field service when I understood that vast numbers of Christians already believed in a "paradise earth".

14

Which WT book (or booklet) has illustrations of prehistoric animals?

by Disillusioned JW in

i remember that i once saw a wt book (or maybe a booklet) which in depicting one or two of the creative days of genesis had illustrations depicting now extinct prehistoric animals.

which publication was that?

i think the illustrations were of a 1950s or 1960s style.. update: i found it.

Sea Breeze

Dinosaurs are everywhere they are not supposed to be.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Earnest, Maybe, maybe not.

But scriptures in the OT often take on a more literal meaning in the light of the NT.

Such as:

Acts 20:28 "Feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood..."

Early church leaders (disciples of the apostles) had the understanding of God sacrificing himself for all mankind and frequently referred to Jesus as God. Here are a few examples:

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117): For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. Translation from Michael Holmes, Apostolic Fathers, 197)

2. Ignatius (again): Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life. (Ibid., 19.3. Holmes, AF, 199)

3. Ignatius (again): For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father. (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229)

4. Ignatius (again): I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249.)

5. Ignatius (again): Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way. (Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.)

6. Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)

7. Epistle of Barnabas (written c. 70–130): “If the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make humankind according to our image and likeness,” how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of humans?” (Epistle of Barnabas, 5.5. Holmes, AF, 393)

8. Justin Martyr (100–165): And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264)

9. Justin (again): “Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.” (Ibid., 36. ANF, I:212.)

10. Justin (again): Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. (Ibid., 63. ANF, I:229)

11. Justin (again): The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin . . .” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 63. ANF, I:184)

12. Justin (again): For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 126. ANF, I:263)

13. Tatian (110–172): We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man. (Tatian, Address to the Greeks, 21. ANF, II:74)

8

Parents of Different Spiritual Persuasions

by Thehermit05 in

jw
friends

i escaped the cult many years ago.

as a result, i have an eye for cultlike thinking, whether in terms of religion, politics, centrist thinking, etc.. last december my fiance and i had a baby.

she is black and i'm white.

Sea Breeze

focused on self-development and transformation by way of occult and magical techniques.

I had enough of that while in the Watchtower.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Jesus is found throughout the Old Testament if you look for him:

May be an image of text that says 'Thy dead men men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19 KJV'

Now when did God have a dead body?

The phrase, "thus saith the Lord" appears over 400 times in the Old Testament. It does not appear in the NT even once.

But in the NT Jesus said, "I say unto you" 135 times.

17

What JWs don't know they believe

by StephaneLaliberte in

in a post this morning, i suggested that a way to wake up fellow congregants is to plainly comment or make talks on teachings and rules the jws don't really know too well.

the idea is that you can say these things, other jws will be bothered by the comments, but will not be able to do anything about it as this is the official teaching or stand on this or that.

the key here is that when troubling rules and teachings are thought in the watchtower, they generally use wording that makes them go down easy.

Sea Breeze

*** In the "Revelation" book, there is one instance where wt states that the "anointed" have to sacrifice the right to paradise, in order to make it to heaven, like Jesus, who as the second Adam, had that earthly right.

Good point Waton. Yes, the GB considers themselves as martyrs and as paying some price like Jesus did.

This is why they are constantly drawing attention to their own authority instead of Jesus. They are the instead-of-Jesus option, an anti-christ.

17

What JWs don't know they believe

by StephaneLaliberte in

in a post this morning, i suggested that a way to wake up fellow congregants is to plainly comment or make talks on teachings and rules the jws don't really know too well.

the idea is that you can say these things, other jws will be bothered by the comments, but will not be able to do anything about it as this is the official teaching or stand on this or that.

the key here is that when troubling rules and teachings are thought in the watchtower, they generally use wording that makes them go down easy.

Sea Breeze

They deny the Christian doctrine of Substitution, which states that Jesus died for you, to pay your penalty. The WT says that Jesus died to pay back what Adam lost.

Since the WT teaches that you can self atone when you die, most members never realize the importance of Justification... which is also denied to members.

Justification means that there is no debt. Instead they teach, that through will-power, you can grow to perfection even though scripture rather forcefully states that by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified!

As soon as someone puts faith in their church affiliation and works, what God offers is off the table.

It is cruel irony that when a person seeks to identify THE F&DS, instead of Jesus, they become very unfaithful and indiscreet... as well as a Watchtower slave.

54

Allegheny Pyramid Desecrated

by RolRod in

sometime within the last 2 weeks, someone took a sledgehammer to the pyramid monument in allegheny.

they stole the topstone, smashed the cross and crown emblem and removed the seal.. personally i'm surprised it lasted this long untouched.

although through the years russell's grave has been vandalized, it was always repaired by the bible students..

Sea Breeze

Mmmmm, you got 80,000 families a year being destroyed through the disfellowshipping practice alone. This does not include the thousands of families destroyed and lives taken from the blood policy or the lives destroyed by unreported pedophiles in the Watchtower Organization. They are also criminally responsible for countless suicides due to their teaching that a person can self-atone when they die.

Face it; The Watchtower organization started by Russell has been a sociological nuclear bomb unleashed on the human race. Our families just drew the short straw that's all.

I am also utterly shocked that ANY WT monuments still exist. There is good reason for GB members to have body guards wherever they go.